Prabhupāda: Now, suppose that here is open field. There is… We are walking very nicely. And the downtown, congested city, that is not very nice. So at least, if I don’t spoil my energy to make the place uncomfortable, if I save my energy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in this open field, that is intelligence or that is intelligent? Which is intelligent? We are also going to die. That’s all right. But we are going to die like intelligent person, not like cats and dogs. That is the difference.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is, though, that everyone has to work because they have to feed themselves and they have to…

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are working. We are not sitting idle. Now, for our food, if we just get some food by plowing some land for the animal, cows, and for me, and the cow is giving me milk, the tree are giving me fruit, why shall I work so hard? The business of dogs and hogs, whole day and night simply working for getting food and sense gratification? That is not civilization. Live peacefully, get your nice food, and save time to advance in spiritual life. This is civilization. And simply for little comfort for a few years I have wasted my time in so many humbug comforts. Actually that is… What is this comfort of the skyscraper building? I think it is a mechanical prison.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Matchbox also.

Prabhupāda: Matchbox.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said last night that without electricity it would be hell.

Prabhupāda: It is hell. And we are creating this hell.

Harikeśa: I don’t know. I’m enjoying.

Prabhupāda: You are a rascal. That is the proof you are a rascal. (laughter)

(…)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If nothing is our property—in fact, everything is Kṛṣṇa’s property—why is there this desire to possess so many things?

Prabhupāda: Possess, you can possess.  Tena  tyaktena  bhuñjithā   [Īśo  mantra 1].  The real proposal is that everything belongs to God. Then God’s representative, king, he gives you land. But you require for ten men’s foodstuff. You calculate the ten men’s foodstuff, for producing, you require so much land, so the king gives you land. You work and grow your food. And because it is God’s property, you give some tax. Whatever you produce, twenty-five percent give to God or king, and balance, you enjoy. If there is no production — no tax. This is peaceful life. You work. You take land, God’s land. You cannot… Why you have occupied so much land? Others, they are not allowed to enter; where there is overpopulation? How you can expect peace? Just like in China and India and other places they’re overpopulation. Why don’t you allow them, that “In Africa there is no sufficient population. Please come and toil and grow your food and live peacefully”? Where is that formula? Rascals, they are wanting peace. All rascal, rogues. And why they have become rascal, rogues? For want of God consciousness. They do not know that it is God’s property, falsely thinking, “My property.” And today I am thinking, “My property,” and next day I become a dog on the same property. Hm? This dog loitering, who can say he was not formerly a Mr. Smuts? Who can say? Maybe he was Smuts; now he is dog. How can you take him? This is nature’s process. Tathā  dehāntara–prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. After death you’ll have to accept another body. Now who can guarantee that General Smuts did not accept a dog’s body? Who can guarantee? Where is the science? You think that he is dead and gone, but Kṛṣṇa does not say like that. Tathā dehāntara–prāptiḥ. Now what kind of body he has got? Where is the scientist to ascertain that “Mr., General Smuts has got now this body. He is living here”? Where is the science? You simply see like a fool and rascal, “My father is gone.” Where your father gone? Where did he live so long? Why did you not see him? Where is the science? He is simply crying like a child, “My father is gone.” Where he has gone? Find him out. And what he was? Why did you not see so long? This is their knowledge.

Harikeśa: It seems unless there is some monarch who is ruling over the whole world, one personality…

Prabhupāda: No, not… Yes, whole world. He must be rājarṣi, just like  Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, representative of Kṛṣṇa. He can divide to small kings, “Now you look after such tract of land,” and he divides. In this way there will be peace. No tax. If you are unable to produce anything, then no tax. Why should you levy tax from the poor man?

Harikeśa: What about those people who don’t want to work? They are lazy.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: What about lazy people?

Prabhupāda: Let them become śūdra. Let them become servant. After all, unless he works, he cannot get his food. So let him become servant. He has to work to get food. No property. He should not be given any property. If you work, you can get food. Just like animal.

Harikeśa: How in the beginning is it decided that somebody is working and he should be given or not given?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: How in the beginning… Let’s say you have a king…

Prabhupāda: Beginning Kṛṣṇa.

Harikeśa: No, no. Let’s say you have a king, and he is deciding this person is worthy of…

Prabhupāda: No, no, beginning, Kṛṣṇa. Why don’t you read Bhagavad-gītā? You do not know?

Harikeśa: No, no. Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is the social arrangement? What is that?

Harikeśa: That Kṛṣṇa created the four orders.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in order. But you are not taking Kṛṣṇa’s advice. You are manufacturing your hellish ideas.

Harikeśa: No, I was just wondering how one would be able to see who was acting in a certain way unless they were first engaged in something. They have to be doing some activity…

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Harikeśa: …so you can see what kind of quality they have.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Take “everyone is rascal,” then train them. That is wanted. Take everyone as rascal. There is no question that “Here is intelligent man, here is rascal, here is the…” No. First of all take them all rascals, and then train them. That is wanted. That is wanted now. At the present moment the whole world is full of rascals. Now, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training. You are brāhmaṇa by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brāhmaṇa, classify him in the  brāhmaṇa. One is trained up as kṣatriya,  classify him. In this way, cātur–varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣ…

Harikeśa: And that kṣatriya would engage everyone basically as śūdra  and then pick from them.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: He would initially pick…

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You pick up… You take the whole mass of people as śūdra. Then…

Harikeśa: Pick out.

Prabhupāda: Pick out. And rest, who is neither brāhmaṇa  nor kṣatriya  nor vaiśya, then he is śūdra. That’s all, very easy thing. If he cannot be trained up as engineer, then he remains as a common man. There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force. Śūdra is also required.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now the incentive in modern society to become educated or to become engineer is money. What is the incentive in Vedic culture?

Prabhupāda: There is no need of money. The brāhmaṇa teaches everything free of charge. There is no question of money. Anyone can take education as a brāhmaṇa or a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. There is no…  Vaiśya  doesn’t require any education. Kṣatriyas require little. Brāhmaṇa require. But that is free. Just find out a brāhmaṇa guru and he will give you free education. That’s all. This is society. Now, as soon as… At the present moment, as soon as one wants to be educated, he requires money. But in the Vedic society there is no question of money. Education free.

Harikeśa: So the incentive is the happiness in society?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is… Everyone is hankering after: “Where is happiness?” This will be the happiness. When people will be peaceful, happy in their living condition, that will bring happiness, not by imagining that “If I have got a skyscraper building, I will be happy,” and then jump over and commit suicide. That is going on. He is thinking that “If I have a skyscraper building, I will be happy,” and when he is frustrated, he jumps down. That is going on. This is happiness. That means all rascals. They do not know what is happiness. Therefore everyone requires guidance from Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now you were saying that there is high rate of suicide here?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Why? This is the country possessing gold mine, and why they are…? And you said that it is difficult to become poor here.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You have to try hard to become poor man here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And still there is suicide. Why? Every man is rich man, and why he is committing suicide? Hm? Can you reply?

Devotee (1): They lack central happiness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no happiness. (pause) Nobody can remain lazy, because he will be hungry. So how he will remain lazy? He’ll have to go somewhere, begging food, and he’ll say, “First of all work. Then get your food.” He’ll work. So there is no question of remaining lazy. Just like the hippies. They do not work, but when they do not get food from anywhere, they go and work. Is it not? So he will be obliged to work.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is the incentive, then.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

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